How much do you tell....

JoeM · Post by **JoeM** » Sat May 18, 2002 7:02 pm

...your partner presuming there is another day or so still to go after today? Of course if you haven't been on fish, there is no problem.
Do you just give generalizations and hope you can get near your fish? Or do you just tell him everything because tomorrow the fish might be gone anyhow?
Also, what is a good $ figure for sharing expenses where distances are great and gas prices are still high? (I notice CT Fed suggested prices for the back-seater are between $20-$30 per day depending on HP rating of the engine.) Seems fair to me. What do you think about that and what are the "going rates" in your area?
Good Fishing JoeM

mofish · Post by **mofish** » Sun May 19, 2002 1:29 pm

I fished the Wal-Mart Bass Fishing League which is like a Pro-Am tournament. Almost all of the Partners that I drew offered money ($20) to me after the tournament. One did not and he felt that I did not help him catch fish. Which If he would have noticed I only caught one during the tournament so it was tough. Most of the folks that I fish with respect each others water. I was in the lead for a two day tournament and lots of folks saw were I was fishing the day before but not one person entered the place I was fishing the day after. I lost the tournament by only a few onces, because I did not listen to my partner when he told me what he was catching them on and by the time I decided to do what he suggested it was to late. I dont mind sharing info if I know that they will respect what I am doing and were I am fishing.

MO

d.mcgarry · Post by **d.mcgarry** » Mon May 20, 2002 2:59 pm

Joe,
As far as money goes it depends on how far we travel during the day, if for example I am runnuing the tide on the hudson and going south to Wappingers creek and working my way up or down the river I may think 30 bucks is needed but if I am fishing the Ogdensburgh and crosinthe river and fishing 10 minutes away all day 10 bucks could be fine. I f I am fishing a two or three day event as a nonboater and I I am put on fish by my day one partner I never ever go to their water!!! Don't even ask!! On day two and I am using my boat or my partner day two is interested I will suggest similar water if he has nothing going but never steal spots( Don't even say I was going there any way). A pitfall some fisherman fall into is spot fishing, that is returning to an area that others have had success in rather than understanding the variables such as Bass Behavior, weather, season and water conditions. I have as some of my contempories have been followed by these guys and actually had them stake an area that we were fishing. I am not saying that they do not have the right to fish there but that they should learn how to think Bass to locate them on their own instead of reeying on other peoples spots. In a friendly club tournament I sharre all the info and will tell any one who wants to listen what was (or what Ithought was) going on that day, becuase Bass clubs are about people learning more about the sport they enjoy and sharing information not winning at all cost. Good Bassin Dan Bass

SMbass · Post by **SMbass** » Mon May 20, 2002 9:56 pm

I will tell me partner everything if it is a club tournament too, as they are fun events. If I'm fishing a big money event, I will tell my partner absolutely nothing. The more information I give him (such as lure and color) the better his chances of catching a bass off my spot. Each bass he catches is one I will definately not. I learned this lesson after the BASS Potomac Invitational in April. I told my first day partner the kind of crankbait I was using and color. He proceeded to land 3 bass for 9lbs 15oz, putting him in 21st place after day one. I only came in with 4lbs 10oz. At the end of the event, I missed cashing an $1,800 check by 11oz. Had I not told my partner on day one what I was using, perhaps I would have caught one more bass that day, and came home with a check. That day taught me a valuable lesson, never tell my partner anything. One thing to realize about competition in draw tournaments is the fact that the other angler in the boat is your closest competitor. For he is fishing the same water, same pattern and can see every change you do, the way you present the bait and so on. The other competitors are somewhere else and out of sight. The angler in the boat is your closest competitor, so why help him out?

brendanc · Post by **brendanc** » Mon May 20, 2002 11:42 pm

Tim,

You make a good point... and I agree with you. The guy in the back of your boat in a tournament is your closest competitor. Which brings up another point... "Back-Seating". How many times do you hear non-boaters complain about getting back-seated in a tournament? It seems to me that no matter what you do, the guy in the back of the boat is always going to feel as though he was back-seated.

I’ll give you a scenario, and I’d like to get some feedback from everyone:

I have won a lot of tournaments by fishing isolated pieces of structure that are hard to get to. Some people call this “Junk Fishing”. To be effective at junk fishing, you have to fish extremely fast and cover as many objects as possible in the time given on that tournament day. The trouble is, your competition in the back seat gets zipped all over the lake and usually only gets a crack at the spots that you leave for him.

In big money competition, how would you guys approach this situation? Would you alternate objects (i.e. You get this one I’ll get the next one), or would you just say “tuff luck pal” and hit everything in sight to ensure that you don’t let that kicker fish slip into his bag? Also, how do you guys feel about the 4-hour rule? (Each guy getting equal time to fish their water and in some cases 4 hours with control of the trolling motor on the front of your boat)

When I was a non-boater, I always went out hoping to learn something from the boater. I was not really there to compete. I never felt comfortable asking to control someone’s $35K boat. Who was I to start ordering him around on his own equipment??? Once I decided that I was ready to compete, I made the investment and boat a boat and truck, so that I could go where I wanted to go.

Boy, that’s a mouthful, eh?

JoeM · Post by **JoeM** » Tue May 21, 2002 2:01 am

This is going good. I can sense the juices running in everyone who reads this thread. If you can't call things what they are (within reason, of course), then why discuss them?
Mo- Obviously you fish with a lot of guys with principles. I've been fortunate to have shared the boat with many of the same kind of guys. Every so often I see one of the "others" bending the rules, moving in on someone or some other "almost infraction".
Anglers usually know who those people are and give them a wide berth and no info, period. By the way, good showing in your T.,MO Congrats!

Dan- Paying the boater based on how much the big motor was used is a good way of determining how much the backseater should pay. I do think that there should be a minimum determined by the fact that most of the responsibility is on the boat owner. That should count for something, don't you think?
The boaters enable bass clubs and promoters to hold tournaments in the first place. Imagine everyone walking the shore.
Oh yes, and I consider those "followers" more as stalkers. Agree?

Tim- Giving away good tips to a fellow competitor in a money tournament is kind of like leaving your rig unlocked at the motel.
Sooner or later it's gonna cost you money.
Also, no reason to help your backseater "play defense" by catching bass you worked hard to locate.
But, as one guy told me back a few years ago "A Mistake is nature's way of getting us to improve what we do. The art is knowing that it is a mistake in the first place!"

Brendan- You know I understand the irony of what you said about being accused of "back-seating". I remember just laying my rod down in a little lake in CT so that I could marvel at what I was witnessing. It wasn't that I couldn't cast from the back seat. I just couldn't make the type of cast/pitch that was required to get in and under the greenery that Brendan would one cast after another (and bass after bass)
It did occur to me that if I was observing this from another boat, I would believe this was a classic example of "backseating".
Not that bs (not BS, mind you) isn't a well honed activity in the world of bass. But, in many cases this is just a good excuse for a backseater's poor performance, along with cold fronts and about 15 other conditions.

(And Brendan said that was a mouthful. Big Mouths can't all be bad.)
Keep this stuff coming. Let's add to this as the Boss (Springsteen?, Steinbrenner?) has suggested.
What do YOU have to say?
JoeM

SMbass · Post by **SMbass** » Tue May 21, 2002 2:07 am

Brendan I agree. B.A.S.S. just changed its format to Pro-Am as an alternative to the "4-hour" rule. Many anglers did not like that rule. Lets face it, you buy a $35K boat, $20K vehicle to tow it, spend 3days of practice, $1000 in expenses (travel, practice, tackle) to share half the day with a stranger. One it isn't fair (to the boat owner) and two, it doesnt let either angler determine their own destiny. Too many times anglers miss out on checks, qualifying for the Top 150 or the Bassmasters Classic, because their partner called their "4-hours".

mofish · Post by **mofish** » Tue May 21, 2002 1:58 pm

Man thats a good one Brendan.

I never did like the 4hr rule that is one reason I fished the BFL. That way I had controle of the boat the full day of fishing. I know that I would hate to be fishing a spot and doing good in the tournament and then have to turn my boat over to someone else and leave my fish.(Its hard enough for me to find them anyway muchless leave to go look for more!!!)

Of course the PRO-Am format is one of them that is hard to talk about too. In the BFL if the non-boater feels like you hampered his ability to catch fish he can file a complaint with the officals. Although I never saw anyone officialy turn one in the was alot of complaining about the so called Pros that could not find the fish. I hate to say it but that is just fishing.

We need a tournament trail for the Pro's were the is no one else in the boat with them and they just fish and enjoy it all day long. Somebody pinch me I must be dreaming!!!lol

Conley

brendanc · Post by **brendanc** » Tue May 21, 2002 4:01 pm

MO,

There is a tournament held up in New Hampshire on lake Winnipesaukee. I believe that is it run by Charlie Moore Outdoors... Anyhow, each person must fish alone in their own boat and I think that they are not allowed to use dip nets either. Tim (SMbass)& I know a guy who fishes the tourny, and he says it has it's Pro's and Con's.

He sited one time when not being able to net a fish cost him the tournament and took it one step further to say that even if he was able to use a net, it would have been much easier if he had someone on board to that could have netted the fish for him...

So, that makes one think... Wouldn't it be great to have "Net Boys"... Kind of like a bass fishing administrative assistant. Pay them like $8 an hour and have them back in the boat, get your morning coffee, set out your rods on the deck, get the boat warmed up, get you a drink when you get thirsty, hand you a sandwich when you get hungry... LOL

I heard somewhere that Roland Martin used to have just that... In fact, he used to role up to the tournament in a big white Caddy and everything was all set up and ready for him to go. All he had to do was worry about fishing that day.

On another note, I'm still waiting to hear from some non-boaters and get the other side of this coin going...

Fish Hard...

BC

d.mcgarry · Post by **d.mcgarry** » Tue May 21, 2002 10:42 pm

Gentlemen, Ray Scott started Bass tournaments that were the first Non-cheating events. Ray's idea was that if you were teamed up with a stranger and someone who is a competitor they would give Bass tournaments a good name and they could stop the accusations and Believe it or not LIE DETECTOR TESTS!! Years ago all fisherman were considered to be cheaters and the contests were "fixed", Ray Scott stopped all that with the partner draw. I like a partner but if I am in my boat and on fish I will turn any complaint he has off, he or she is welcome to any tackle or info they might need but they must understand a few rules, first - Don't ever go back to my fish with some one else ever!!! Don't complain about being in the back of the boat, we all started out there, none of us were hatched or born with a boat instead make the most of your time learning draw stick figures if you have to. Ask questions respect the what the boat owner says and enjoy the day, if you hired any guide for the day it would be $250.00 after you were all done Tournamnets are cheap!! You are a rider and riders almost always do not win an event!! As a boater I try not to impose on my rider I am Honest and courteous, I do not make him my slave or net boy, I do not talk bad or down to him during and especially after an event. It is better to be a gentleman and a good partner than to win every event, gentlemen live on long after their gifts fail them!! When negotiating for whose boat are we taking, be honest do not say you are on fish when your not, I like it when my partner says I have practiced and I am on nothing how about you and I find them can I use my boat. You must be honest with yourself and know when to find something new and when you have nothing. Good Bassin Dan Bass